candid ([info]candid) wrote,
@ 2008-05-19 12:58:00
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hang on lady, we go for a ride!
I don't really like the Indiana Jones movies all that much. Part of this is that they really struggle to maintain my attention. (I can state this pretty authoritatively, as they have been coming on cable TV over the last several weeks, and I have tried to watch each of them, with varying degrees of success.) But part of it is also that I don't get the calculus of the Indiana Jones Universe, in a way that I find extremely frustrating.

Let us spell out some of its features:

* there is a Biblical relic that, when opened, melts people's faces.
* there are magical stones that glow when near each other, and which (somehow) allow priests of Kali to reach into people's chests and pull out their hearts, which somehow burst into flame when the (still-living after several minutes) heartless victim is lowered into a fire
* there is a different Biblical relic that grants immortality to people who drink from it and also heals wounds

The first and third seem to imply that either there is some sort of truth to the Bible, or else that there is some non-Biblical source of actual magic the realization of which inspired Bible stories. The second seems to favor the latter explanation, as the Thuggees don't fit really well into a Jesus-y world.

So let's just say that in the Indiana Jones universe, there is some sort of magic. From what we are shown, we are forced to conclude that this magic manifests itself only in the rarest circumstances, all of which Indiana Jones just happens to be present for. And what effect does this magic have on the world? None.

The reason (good) Sci-Fi and Fantasy stories are interesting is that they use technology and/or magic as a launching point to explore "how is this new magical world different from the world we live in, and what does that say about human nature?"

You have heard me, I'm sure, rant about the abysmal economics of the Harry Potter universe, which utterly fails to address the tension between scarcity and magic. (e.g. the Weasleys can perform the most fantastic magical spells but are still so "poor" that Ron has to wear ratty secondhand robes.)

Consider this, then, my analogous rant about the paucity of imagination poured into the Indiana Jones universe, whose use of magic is so poorly thought out that their world is for all practical purposes identical to ours, except for infrequent appearances of extremely powerful magic that never seem to have any societal consequences.

Now, if in the fourth movie (which I am seeing on Friday as part of a work event) they happen to address the question of "how has the world changed drastically on account of having had an immortality-providing cup for the last 20 years?" then I will maybe reconsider my position. But I am pretty sure they won't.



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[info]ikilled007
2008-05-19 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I have the very same gripes about Remo Williams.

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[info]kirinqueen
2008-05-19 08:18 pm UTC (link)
The cup was lost at the end of The Last Crusade?

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[info]candid
2008-05-19 08:20 pm UTC (link)
That's what I get for not being able to sit through the movie.

In that case, I hope we explore how Indy's dad is dealing with eternal life.

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[info]colinmarshall
2008-05-19 10:27 pm UTC (link)
Indy himself drank from the cup, so he's also immortal.

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[info]pbrane
2008-05-20 02:17 am UTC (link)
That should provide some ease with which to extend the IJ franchise!

(as if they needed an excuse! now if only they could find a way to mummify/extend Harrison Ford's longevity, they'll be set!)

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[info]infopractical
2008-05-20 02:21 am UTC (link)
They'll just clone him. Or rub stem cell powder all over him.

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(I know this only because I saw the last fifteen minutes when it was on TV this weekend)
[info]joshc
2008-05-20 02:52 am UTC (link)
the creepy and boring old knight says something about how the grail's bible magic only works inside the cave. that's why the ground opens up when the nazi blonde tries to carry it across the seal.

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Re: (I know this only because I saw the last fifteen minutes when it was on TV this weekend)
[info]candid
2008-05-20 04:34 am UTC (link)
In which case they sure went to a lot of trouble to safeguard something that's not even that useful.

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Re: (I know this only because I saw the last fifteen minutes when it was on TV this weekend)
[info]joshc
2008-05-20 06:01 pm UTC (link)
who said that religious fanatics ever made particularly sensible decisions?

thanks to the internet movie script database I now know Lucas's terms & conditions for the magic of the grail -- it's healing power lasts outside the cave (indy & dad both drink from it and their severe wounds are fixed), but it and its immortality-granting power doesn't:

KNIGHT
You have chosen wisely. But the
Grail cannot pass beyond the
Great Seal. That is the boundary
and the price of immortality. [imsdn]

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[info]cluebyfour
2008-05-19 08:21 pm UTC (link)
They can't answer that exact question, since the Grail was left behind in the temple at the end of the third movie. But supposedly Indy should be immortal now, so they will have to at least explain why he looks so damn old.

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[info]phanatic
2008-05-19 09:09 pm UTC (link)
It only works while you remain in the temple. Leave, you're not immortal anymore.

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[info]cluebyfour
2008-05-19 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Did the old knight explain this at some point? It's been a long time since I've watched it, but I thought all he said was that the Grail couldn't be carried past the seal.

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[info]semiotic_pirate
2008-05-19 10:10 pm UTC (link)
He did explain it as being such that if he left the area he would indeed die. As for Indy and Pop... Indy took a drink, yes. But he left the location (and hell, the knight did age). Pop got healed using the grail, and either way he also left the location.

This is why the mother of their son, Marian Ravenwood, looks to be of a similarly aged appearance to Dr. Jones.

As for the grail being carried past the seal... It probably could have, the point was that if you carried it past the seal the place they were in would self-destruct. Which it did. They could've gotten out with it if they hadn't been in a stand off with each other and trying to get out.

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[info]herbaliser
2008-05-29 06:04 pm UTC (link)
that's why his brother knight had a tomb after living 300 years.

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just leave it somewhere they'll find it
[info]perich
2008-05-19 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Cynic that I am, I have a hard time believing the Department of War Defense got its hands on a magical gold chest of instant army slaying and decided that they'd rather nuke Japan, murder Koreans en masse, set Vietnamese on fire and bomb Cambodians, with varying degrees of success, then use it.

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Re: just leave it somewhere they'll find it
[info]semiotic_pirate
2008-05-19 10:04 pm UTC (link)
The whole point is that when they put it in the huge, gigantic, enormous warehouse and tell Dr. Jones that they have "top men working on it" it actually means that the ARC is lost in the bureaucratic shuffle and totally forgotten about.

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[info]boffo
2008-05-19 09:05 pm UTC (link)
The existence and powers of the Ark were covered up by the government.

Presumably after Temple of Doom ended, Indy stumbled out of the Indian jungle telling a story about magic stones, but without any evidence to back it up. So his stories were treated the same as anyone else's evidence-free stories about magic.

And the Grail was dropped into a bottomless chasm, and they explained that it only grants eternal life so long as the person who drank from it stays inside the temple. So Indy and Henry could have lived forever, but they would have spent eternity twiddling their thumbs inside a room filled with a bunch of fake grails and nothing else.

I think the rules of the universe are that Christianity is true, and religious artifacts have real magic powers. This isn't any different than what a significant chunk of the world's population already believes. Considering that the proof of this wasn't made public, I think it's plausible for this to have no real impact on the world.

There's nothing incompatible in this with non-Christian artifacts also having power. If you read the bible closely, it never denies the existence or powers of other gods. It just says that Yahweh is the best and most powerful of the gods. For example, the Pharaoh's priests turn their staffs into snakes, but Moses turns his staff into a bigger snake that eats the other snakes.

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[info]browascension
2008-05-19 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Yep.

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[info]ernunnos
2008-05-30 05:45 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I think the economics of Indiana Jones makes a lot more sense than Harry Potter. Jones is ostensibly an explorer out to uncover these magical relics, but his true role in all of them is to keep them hidden so that other people don't actually get to change the world with them. He's the defender of the status quo, which is why his world doesn't look any different than ours. It's basically MIB with magic instead of aliens, or one of those action/horror movies like Blade or the Cthulhu mythos movies where a lone hero tries to keep the "normal" humans from figuring out that they live in a much scarier world than they know. I guess The Matrix and Soylent Green would be part of the counter-genre.

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[info]other
2008-05-19 09:11 pm UTC (link)
This is not related to your post, but I watched this video of a Christian version of Punk'd faking the rapture and I immediately thought of you.

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Hilarious, terrifying, depressing...
[info]ginko72
2008-05-19 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Just what I look for in a good day on the internet!

Thanks!

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[info]evan
2008-05-19 09:33 pm UTC (link)
We are seeing the movie on Thursday as part of a work event.

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[info]candid
2008-05-19 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Man, you guys have to outdo us at everything!

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[info]evan
2008-05-19 11:50 pm UTC (link)
Man, we have to emulate your behavior on everything! :\

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[info]colinmarshall
2008-05-19 10:27 pm UTC (link)
I love this post.

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[info]infopractical
2008-05-20 01:53 am UTC (link)
Let us spell out some of its features:

* there is a Biblical relic that, when opened, melts people's faces.
* there are magical stones that glow when near each other, and which (somehow) allow priests of Kali to reach into people's chests and pull out their hearts, which somehow burst into flame when the (still-living after several minutes) heartless victim is lowered into a fire
* there is a different Biblical relic that grants immortality to people who drink from it and also heals wounds


Is this really all that outrageous when compared to other stories from the Bible or other religious texts?


Besides that, by looking for a calculus, you're asking both sets of stories (Jones and Potter) to do the impossible. Potter is good vs. evil where the specialness of the good characters is highlighted because...that's how you get kids to read -- focus on their specialness. Indiana Jones is just pure adventure. You can't jump straight into adventure without bending the rules of the universe in an absurd way (unless you have an entire series like Star Trek or Firefly to jump into the action, avoiding the need for explaining the universe or developing the characters.

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[info]candid
2008-05-20 02:12 am UTC (link)
Is this really all that outrageous when compared to other stories from the Bible or other religious texts?

Of course not. But that's not my point. We live in a world where "biblical" miracles do not actually happen. If they did happen on occasion, our world would be very, very different. Therefore, a world that is exactly the same as ours except for the existence of scattered biblical miracles represents sheer creative laziness.

You can't jump straight into adventure without bending the rules of the universe in an absurd way.

What about Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? The Incredibles? The Princess Bride? These all at least address the idea that a world with magic would be different from ours in certain fundamental ways.

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[info]infopractical
2008-05-20 02:19 am UTC (link)
Star Wars? Decent, but if you give me a chance, I'm sure I can punch plenty of holes in that universe.

Lord of the Rings? It's not clear that there is really magic in LOTR. The elves take discussion of their "magic" as quaint, suggesting that it's really just technology that isn't understood by others. Though as far as realism in an alternate universe goes, I do give LOTR a huge thumbs up, but it's not every day an anarchist with writing talent comes along and crafts a universe as he sees it. If this were not a very high standard, we'd all be poor people who read all day instead of work. Every day.

The Incredibles? I don't understand why this is better than a world of scattered miracles where our world isn't fundamentally changed.

The Princess Bride? The miracle pill? Is that it?

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[info]candid
2008-05-20 04:33 am UTC (link)
I'm sure I can punch plenty of holes in that universe.

Of course you can, but at least there is a somewhat-imagined universe to punch holes in!

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[info]irrationalrobot
2008-05-20 05:32 am UTC (link)
It's an adventure movie, not an attempt at fantasy or SF. Then again, so was Jewel of the Nile, and it didn't have that problem.

Did you like Big Trouble in Little China?

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[info]jarodrussell
2008-05-21 03:24 pm UTC (link)
My advice to you: never read comic books, because in that world...a world of magic, cyborgs, and clones...it makes perfect sense for their greatest information broker to stay a paraplegic.

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